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Questions on master Rinzai statements ?

Discussion of Japanese Rinzai Zen (臨済宗) including Obaku Zen (黄檗宗).

Questions on master Rinzai statements ?

Postby Arab Buddhist on Sat Feb 22, 2014 7:54 pm

Hello dharma friends

I have questions on master Rinzai statements

Rinzai said :
" Followers of the Way, do you want to attain this Dharma? Then it is indeed necessary to become a man who has nothing further to seek "

Seek for what ?

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Rinzai said :
" I tell you this: There is no Buddha, no Dharma, no training and no realization. What are you so hotly chasing? Putting a head on top of your head, you blind fools? Your head is right where it should be. What are you lacking ? "

What is mean this statement ?

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Rinzai said :
" Followers of the Way, only a great teacher dares to disparage the Buddhas and patriarchs, dares to criticize everything "

Are this against buddha teaching on morality ?

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Thank you
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Re: Questions on master Rinzai statements ?

Postby klqv on Sat Feb 22, 2014 8:58 pm

Hi

Are this against buddha teaching on morality ?
I would say hesitantly but firmly, no. I read it as a teaching on meditation, practice.
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Re: Questions on master Rinzai statements ?

Postby desert_woodworker on Sat Feb 22, 2014 9:14 pm

A_B,

I have several opinions in answer to your questions about Master Rinzai's statements. But note that his statements were delivered during gatherings of his monastic community of students and disciples. The statements were fresh and appropriate at those meetings, at those moments. They do not have to be fresh, now. They are dead words. We are not there. We have not been practicing (full-time!) with his Assembly, under his care as a Teacher, seven days a week, all day.

But, I still have some opinions. They are not worth very much, however! Caution.
:EEK: :hide:
> I have questions on master Rinzai statements
> Seek for what ?

Every practitioner has a chance to answer this. If one is seeking, then what is one seeking for? Many seek to attain something in their practice, from their practice, perhaps. How about you? To go about (to undertake..., to engage in... ) practice with a "seeking"-mind is a sure way not to awaken, and is, in fact, an Attachment. Seeking, along with everything else, must be dropped at some point.

> What is mean this statement ?

"Putting another head above your own head" is an old expression for "not relying on oneself", or on one's actual experience. When one awakens, one sees that all the old religious figures and icons that one believed existed are really not quite as we thought of them, earlier. Rinzai has an awakened point of view, and he speaks from that, and from his Realization. Probably most of the monastics in the community were not yet awakened, and so Rinzai's words could impact upon the hearers with a little shock, and break their cherished, fixed-ideas down a little bit further to dust, in order to help them. The Master was a very compassionate Teacher, indeed!

> Are this against buddha teaching on morality ?

No, Master Rinzai is not against morality or sila, the Precepts; Precepts are necessary in his community of monastics, while the Master is training them, and they are all practicing there. But the Precepts are really just a description of the actual behavior of a Buddha. So that, when one is a Buddha, or an awakened great Teacher, the Precepts are "followed" naturally, and not followed by "rote", not followed by "adherence". One never makes an infraction. Again, the Precepts then simply describe your behavior. But... one must BE a great, awakened Teacher. One cannot "fake" it. ;-)

All best,

--Joe (a Buddhist-Sufi)
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Re: Questions on master Rinzai statements ?

Postby Linda Anderson on Sat Feb 22, 2014 10:00 pm

klqv wrote:Hi
Are this against buddha teaching on morality ?

I would say hesitantly but firmly, no. I read it as a teaching on meditation, practice.

Luke,
I like the simplicity of what you said... and it says a lot. I hadn't approached it quite so directly before.

True meditation can be seen as having nothing to seek, resting in things as they are. Seeking by nature is outside and separate from us... Indeed, this can be described as illusion and nothing more than an abstract explanation by an ego who has not resolved the inseparability of form and emptiness. All sorts of spiritual gymnastics can be employed to explain this. :PP: As Rinzai says, no need to add another head on top. He is speaking directly to what is happening inside our very being. To sink into true meditation is to sink directly into life, on and off cushion, naturally as it is happening, nothing added.

If we take Rinzai's advice to heart, it's alive in us! Whether here or there, no beginning and no ending, it's alive. Then never mind Rinzai. To be with things as they are touches our immediate experience. In that immediacy, Buddha in all aspects does not exist apart from us. The Buddha may still reside on our altar, but indeed our experience is within us.

In the deepest sense, Rinzai is honoring Buddha and the Patriarchs as it exists within each of us.... outside just false idols.
:Namaste:
linda
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Re: Questions on master Rinzai statements ?

Postby bubuyaya on Sun Feb 23, 2014 2:38 am

Arab Buddhist wrote:
I have questions on master Rinzai statements

Rinzai said :
" Followers of the Way, do you want to attain this Dharma? Then it is indeed necessary to become a man who has nothing further to seek "

Seek for what ?



(2) Jesus said, "Let him who seeks continue seeking until he finds.
When he finds, he will become troubled.
When he becomes troubled, he will be astonished, and he will rule over the All."
http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/nhl_thomas.htm]

Seek seeker become troubled to lighten you.
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Re: Questions on master Rinzai statements ?

Postby Linda Anderson on Sun Feb 23, 2014 5:08 am

:rbow:
Not last night,
not this morning;
Melon flowers bloomed.
~ Bassho
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Re: Questions on master Rinzai statements ?

Postby fukasetsu on Sun Feb 23, 2014 10:13 am

Arab Buddhist wrote:Rinzai said :
" Followers of the Way, do you want to attain this Dharma? Then it is indeed necessary to become a man who has nothing further to seek "

Seek for what ?


This is related to the statement "mind is dharma" therefore to have a seeking mind is like tracing the footsteps of an elephant outside while you have an elephant in your home.
You can find similair teachings in the Platform Sutra for instance.
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Rinzai said :
" I tell you this: There is no Buddha, no Dharma, no training and no realization. What are you so hotly chasing? Putting a head on top of your head, you blind fools? Your head is right where it should be. What are you lacking ? "


This is related to the Dharma of the unborn, during birth, in reality there is no birth,
during realization, in reality there is no realization, during training there is in reality, no training.
Buddha is a product of mind, when mind comes into being the various conceptions come to be.
In reality nothing has ever been produced, come into being etc
These talks were for a selected audience at the time, intellectually they might not mean much to anyone reading at this time. Great teachers are always asserting and negating when the situation call for it,
for instance "mind is Buddha" next... Mind is no-Buddha, this is just to "hit the minds" of students,
everytime I think to have "found" something a teacher slashes it away, when I think I'm already complete, they tell me I'm far from it. Perhaps the audience were attached to the dharma, so Rinzai pointed them that the dharma too should be abandoned. I dunno, I wasnt there :lol2:


Rinzai said :
" Followers of the Way, only a great teacher dares to disparage the Buddhas and patriarchs, dares to criticize everything "

Are this against buddha teaching on morality ?


I like what Joe said, and also about the other points.
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Re: Questions on master Rinzai statements ?

Postby fukasetsu on Sun Feb 23, 2014 10:15 am

bubuyaya wrote:Seek seeker become troubled to lighten you.


The gist is:
whatever anyone seeks,
that is seeking the seeker.
No matter if it is animal or vegetable, or mineral.
Every bit of the universe is filled with wanting,
and whatever any bits wants,
wants the wanter!
~Rumi
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Re: Questions on master Rinzai statements ?

Postby Arab Buddhist on Sun Feb 23, 2014 2:27 pm

Thank you friends for your answers
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Re: Questions on master Rinzai statements ?

Postby Kojip on Sun Feb 23, 2014 3:43 pm

Hi Arab Buddhist. Are you posting from the Middle East or Africa? If so, I would be interested to hear how Buddhist practice is viewed in the culture where you now live. Is there a strong practice community, or is there more self reliance involved?

I can't speak for Rinzai, but will take a look at the questions.


" Followers of the Way, do you want to attain this Dharma? Then it is indeed necessary to become a man who has nothing further to seek "

Seek for what ?


Seeking Ultimate Truth. Seeking “the Absolute”. Such seeking is an endless round. The Buddha never held up an Absolute to be sought, but instead taught how to look into reaching and grasping, and end reaching and grasping.


,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Rinzai said :
" I tell you this: There is no Buddha, no Dharma, no training and no realization. What are you so hotly chasing? Putting a head on top of your head, you blind fools? Your head is right where it should be. What are you lacking ? "

What is mean this statement ?


Same as above.. All Buddhist teaching are skillful means for letting go deeply.


" Followers of the Way, only a great teacher dares to disparage the Buddhas and patriarchs, dares to criticize everything "

Are this against buddha teaching on morality ?


I do not know why Rinzai said that, or where he was coming from, but the Buddha taught that first hand realization, direct first hand practice, is what counts in the end. I do not know why anyone would need to disparage anyone. Richard /\
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Re: Questions on master Rinzai statements ?

Postby Arab Buddhist on Sun Feb 23, 2014 4:33 pm

Kojip wrote:Hi Arab Buddhist. Are you posting from the Middle East or Africa? If so, I would be interested to hear how Buddhist practice is viewed in the culture where you now live. Is there a strong practice community, or is there more self reliance involved?

I can't speak for Rinzai, but will take a look at the questions.


" Followers of the Way, do you want to attain this Dharma? Then it is indeed necessary to become a man who has nothing further to seek "

Seek for what ?


Seeking Ultimate Truth. Seeking “the Absolute”. Such seeking is an endless round. The Buddha never held up an Absolute to be sought, but instead taught how to look into reaching and grasping, and end reaching and grasping.


,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Rinzai said :
" I tell you this: There is no Buddha, no Dharma, no training and no realization. What are you so hotly chasing? Putting a head on top of your head, you blind fools? Your head is right where it should be. What are you lacking ? "

What is mean this statement ?


Same as above.. All Buddhist teaching are skillful means for letting go deeply.


" Followers of the Way, only a great teacher dares to disparage the Buddhas and patriarchs, dares to criticize everything "

Are this against buddha teaching on morality ?


I do not know why Rinzai said that, or where he was coming from, but the Buddha taught that first hand realization, direct first hand practice, is what counts in the end. I do not know why anyone would need to disparage anyone. Richard /\


Hi Richard
I am from Middle East . And i practice alone and in secret because i live in islamic country . if they know i was lift islam they will kill me .
I have buddhist Arabic friend in internet from other Arabic country . And they practice alone too . We meet in facebook to learn buddhism .

Thank you for your ask and your answer
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Re: Questions on master Rinzai statements ?

Postby Kojip on Sun Feb 23, 2014 5:01 pm

Arab Buddhist wrote:Hi Richard
I am from Middle East . And i practice alone and in secret because i live in islamic country . if they know i was lift islam they will kill me .
I have buddhist Arabic friend in internet from other Arabic country . And they practice alone too . We meet in facebook to learn buddhism .

Thank you for your ask and your answer [/size]


I am sorry to hear about these difficult conditions, and hope that you will be safe and have some support. Welcome to this forum. I look forward to more conversations. Also, if you and your friends are interested, there is an online practice community where students sit together with a teacher on live video via google + . It is called Treeleaf Sangha. Treeleaf is an established online Soto Zen Sangha with two well experienced, ordained, teachers. Here is a link..... http://www.treeleaf.org/


Richard /\
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Re: Questions on master Rinzai statements ?

Postby Arab Buddhist on Sun Feb 23, 2014 7:23 pm

Kojip wrote:
Arab Buddhist wrote:Hi Richard
I am from Middle East . And i practice alone and in secret because i live in islamic country . if they know i was lift islam they will kill me .
I have buddhist Arabic friend in internet from other Arabic country . And they practice alone too . We meet in facebook to learn buddhism .

Thank you for your ask and your answer


I am sorry to hear about these difficult conditions, and hope that you will be safe and have some support. Welcome to this forum. I look forward to more conversations. Also, if you and your friends are interested, there is an online practice community where students sit together with a teacher on live video via google + . It is called Treeleaf Sangha. Treeleaf is an established online Soto Zen Sangha with two well experienced, ordained, teachers. Here is a link..... http://www.treeleaf.org/


Richard /\


Very great !
Thank you very much Richard[/size]
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Re: Questions on master Rinzai statements ?

Postby bubuyaya on Mon Feb 24, 2014 12:17 am

Linda Anderson wrote::rbow:


Whatever Linda do, whatever doing is Linda.
Seek or don't seek not different.
:rbow:
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Re: Questions on master Rinzai statements ?

Postby bubuyaya on Mon Feb 24, 2014 12:30 am

fukasetsu wrote:
bubuyaya wrote:Seek seeker become troubled to lighten you.


The gist is:
whatever anyone seeks,
that is seeking the seeker.
No matter if it is animal or vegetable, or mineral.
Every bit of the universe is filled with wanting,
and whatever any bits wants,
wants the wanter!
~Rumi


All is fukasetsu,
who is not setsuable,
so become such troubled,
to be all. :rbow:
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