Welcome admin !

It is currently Thu Apr 27, 2017 5:52 pm
Pathway:  Board index Zen Discussion Forum Zen Practice & Philosophy Sutras & Zen Records

Six Phrases of the Ji Lineage, have you hear of this?

For discussions focused on Sutras and Zen texts, old and new.

Six Phrases of the Ji Lineage, have you hear of this?

Postby Gregory Wonderwheel on Sun Oct 19, 2014 3:37 am

I've been translating the cases and verses of Japanese Zen Master Keizan's Denkoroku (Record of Transmitting the Light) (傳光録). If you don't know, Keizan was Dogen's great-grandson in the Dharma lineage and is affectionately known as "the mother of Soto" to complement Dogen's title as "the father of Soto." Discussion of that text is for another separate topic.

In translating the cases, I often came across the term "恁麼" "like this" or "in this way." It occurs over and over in this text about the Caodong/Soto lineage ancestors. It turns out that the Soto/Caodong lineage ancestor Shitou (700-790) used it in his transmission with Yaoshan (751-834) at the beginning of the lineage (see the case below) and that it was a favorite expression of Dogen's own teacher Venerable Tiantong Rujing (1163-1228) who used it in the phrase "正當恁麼," "exactly like this" or "just when like this." That four character phrasing appears 11 times in the Recorded Sayings of Venerable Rujing (如淨和尚語錄 [Taisho Tripitaka Vol. 48, No. 2002A]).

So when I looked up 恁麼 in the dictionaries, I learned that it is the core of what is called the "Six Phrases of the Ji Lineage," referring to the lineage of Linji (J. Rinzai) which surprised me since it was a favorite teaching term in the Caodong/Soto lineage as well. But first the definitions.

The MDBG dictionary has
恁麼: (rèn​me) (old) this way / what?


The Digital Dictionary of Buddhism (DDB) has the term listed under the variation of 恁麼 :
恁麼: ([py] rènmó [hb] inmo) Basic Meaning: in that way. Senses:
• Alternative rendering of 伊麼, 與麼, 恁麼, etc. 〔六祖壇經 T 2008.48.354a14〕 [Charles Muller]

For the alternatives there are:
伊麼: ([py] yīmó [hb] imo) Basic Meaning: in that way... Senses: • Syn. with 恁麼, 恁麼. 〔五家解 HBJ 7.43b11〕 [Charles Muller]


與麼: DDB: ([py] yǔmó [hb] yoma) Basic Meaning: such Senses: • As it is; as one is; a colloquial expression common in Chan texts. Refers to present circumstances or what is being mentioned: 'like this' 'if so' . Equivalent to 與摩, 異沒, 伊摩, 恁麼. 〔百丈大智禪師廣錄〕 〔碧巖錄〕 [Jeffrey Kotyk; source(s): Ina-Z, Nakamura, FGD]
• Term stressing affirmation or truth: 'so' or 'such' . This would be negated with with 不 as in 不與麼. 'not so' . [Charles Muller; source(s): Nakamura]


There is no separate entry in the DDB for 恁麼. However, this is where it got interesting for me. The search in the DDB came up with this:
Headword matches for 恁麼:
恁麼
ALSO IN: 不恁麼也不得 - 不恁麼也得 - 恁麼不恁麼總不得 - 恁麼不恁麼總得 - 恁麼也 - 恁麼也不得 - 恁麼也得 - 旣是恁麼 - 正當恁麼 - 正當恁麼時


Looking up the six references ending in 得 "attained", they are referred to as belonging to 濟宗六句 which DDB calls the "six phrases of the Linji school" (adding the "Lin" to the 濟 "Ji" and using "school" for 宗 which I call "lineage").

The DDB entry says,
濟宗六句 ([py] jǐzōng liùjù [hb] saishū rokku) Basic Meaning: six [teaching] phrases of the Linji school Senses:
• 恁麼也得; the teaching is practicable.
• 不恁麼也得; attainment without applied practices.
• 恁麼也不得; there is originally nothing to attain.
• 不恁麼也不得; no grasping to it's not being unattainable.
• 恁麼不恁麼總得; simultaneous apprehension that it is as it is and as it isn't
• 恁麼不恁麼總不得; neither as it is nor not as it is are held to 〔五家宗旨纂要, 上 〕[Charles Muller]
• Note: at present, these renderings, both here and in the separate entries, are based on an insufficient study of the source materials. Do not take these renderings as definitive at this point.] [Charles Muller]


These DDB/Muller renderings are definitions, not translations, thus the note. They don’t reflect the structural format of the 6 phrases with each line using 恁麼 and/or 不恁麼 as the basis for the turning phrase and each line ending in either 得 "attained" or 不得 "is not attained."

Here are my translations for the "Six Phrases of the Ji Lineage":
恁麼也得; like this is attained .
不恁麼也得; not like this is attained.
恁麼也不得; like this is not attained.
不恁麼也不得; not like this is not attained.
恁麼不恁麼總得; like this and not like this are together attained.
恁麼不恁麼總不得; like this and not like this are together not attained.


Here are the separate DDB entries for each of the six phrases, [each begins with my translation in brackets]:

恁麼也得: [like this is attained] DDB: ([py] rènmóyědé [hb] inmoyatoku) Basic Meaning: attainable in some way Senses: • Can be done; practicable. A reference to attainment that is possible through applied practices such as adhering to the precepts and doing sitting meditation. One of the six phrases of the Linji school. Yokoi renders: "Not to defile enlightenment." (p. 259) See 濟宗六句. [恁麼也得] 〔如淨和尙語錄 T 2002.48.0129c01〕 [Charles Muller]

不恁麼也得: [not like this is attained] DDB: ([py] bùrènmóyě dé [hb] fuinmoya toku) Basic Meaning: attained without applied practices Senses: • One of the six phrases of the Linji school 臨濟六句. Var. 不恁麼也得. 〔法演禪師語錄 T 1995.47.657a16〕 [Charles Muller]

恁麼也不得; [like this is not attained] DDB: ([py] rènmóyě bùdé [hb] inmoya futoku) Basic Meaning: there is originally nothing to attain Senses: • 〔五家解 HBJ 7.44b7〕 [Charles Muller]
• The realm of enlightenment is essentially beyond the discriminating mind. The third of the six phrases in the Linji sect 濟宗六句. [Var. 恁麼也不得] 〔法演禪師語錄 T 1995.47.651a23〕 [Charles Muller; source(s): Yokoi]

不恁麼也不得; [not like this is not attained] DDB: ([py] bùrènmóyě bùdé [hb] fuinmoya futoku) Basic Meaning: not being so is not held to Senses: • A Chan expression indicating full awareness of the immanence of the buddha-nature. The fourth of the six phrases of the Linji school 濟宗六句. 〔五家解 HBJ 7.44b7〕 [不恁麼也不得] [Charles Muller]

恁麼不恁麼總得; [like this and not like this are altogether attained] DDB: ([py] rènmó bùrènmó zǒngdé [hb] inmo fuinmo sōtoku) Basic Meaning: simultaneous apprehension that it is as it is and as it isn't Senses: • The free unhindered usage of snatching away illusion and giving free reign to the student. One sees the grass, tree, rivers and mountains just as they are. One of the six phrases of the Linji school 濟宗六句. [Charles Muller; source(s): ZGDJT]
• To affirm and negate enlightenment with perfect freedom [恁麼不恁麼總得]. [Charles Muller; source(s): Yokoi]
• 〔如淨和尙語錄 T 2002.48.029c01〕 [Charles Muller]

恁麼不恁麼總不得; [like this and not like this are altogether not attained] DDB: ([py] rènmó bùrènmó zǒng bùdé [hb] inmo fuinmo sō futoku) Basic Meaning: neither as it is nor not as it is are held to Senses: • Even if the teacher restrains the students delusion or gives him free reign, all is from the perspective of the buddha-dharma. One of the six phrases of the Linji school 濟宗六句. [Charles Muller; source(s): zgdjt]
• [恁麼不恁麼總不得] [Charles Muller]
• 〔宏智禪師廣錄 T 2001.48.32b3〕 [Charles Muller]


A couple generations before Rujing, who was using the phrase "just when like this" in his teachings, the Linji lineage master Wuzu Fayan (1024-1104) (not to be confused with the Tang Dynasty Fayan Wenyi (885-958) founder of the Fayan house) was promulgating the six phrases, and my guess is that it is due to him that they became known in the Song Dynasty period as the 'Six Phrases of the Ji Lineage." BTW, Wuzu Fayan was the teacher of Yuanwu, the renown commentator of the Blue Cliff Record.

Now, going back to the Denkoroku entry for Shitou's transmission to Yaoshan, we have this which is now recognizable as the three phrases ending in "is not attained."
The Thirty-sixth ancestor was Great Master Hongdao [Yaoshan Weiyan] (Kodo Daishi)

On meeting Shitou he stated the question, “This certain someone knows roughly about the three vehicles and the twelve divisions of the teaching. I’ve heard that in the South there is ‘Directly pointing to the human mind, seeing nature, and becoming Buddha.’ The truth of this is not yet wholly clear. I humbly hope the Venerable will be merciful and point out instruction.”
Tou said, “’”Like this” is not attained.
‘”Not like this” is not attained.
‘”Like this” and “not like this” together are not attained.’
How does the gentleman make it alive?”
The Master couldn’t sort it out.
Tou said, “The gentleman’s causes and conditions are not here. For the time being depart and go to Great Master Ma’s place.”

The Master respected the directive and paid homage to Mazu. He accordingly reported on the previous questioning.
Zu said, “I sometimes instruct him to flutter the eyebrows and blink the eyes and sometimes do not instruct him to flutter the eyebrows and blink the eyes. Sometimes that which is fluttering the eyebrows and blinking the eyes is correct; sometimes that which is fluttering the eyebrows and blinking the eyes is not correct. How does the gentleman make it alive?”
At the fall of the words the Master greatly awakened then ceremonially bowed.
Zu said, “What principle of the Way did you see to then ceremonially bow?”
The Master said, “When this certain someone was at Shitou’s place it was like a mosquito on top of an iron bull.”
Zu said, “Since you are so, it is good to guard and support it on one’s own. Although it is thus, your master is Shitou.”

Keizan's Verse:

What fellow is ordinarily lively and splashing around?
Summon the person who makes the eyebrows flutter and blinks the eyes.


So here we see Shitou, the progenitor of the Caodong lineage using three of the six phrases that later became associated with the Linji lineage. Since these are the three lines ending in "is not attained," I presume that Shitou was well aware of the three lines ending in "is attained." This, of course, shows that the distinctions between the lineages are generally more cosmetic than substantive.

Serendipitously, last week I learned that Dogen has a fascicle on the term 恁麼 (like this) called "Immo," and sometimes translated in English as "Being So" (Weinstein), "That which comes as this" (Zen teacher Hubert Nearman at Shasta Abby) or "Suchness," and Zen Teacher Norman Fischer and Andrea Jacoby, the current practice period Shuso, are doing a Dharma Seminar on it. Norman's first talk is here. Andrea's first talk is here.

I also know that Korean Zen Master Seung Sahn taught emphasizing the sayings "like this" and "just like this", and I assume they are the two phrases 恁麼 (like this) and 正當恁麼 (exactly or just like this), but this is just my speculation, since I don't have the Chinese or Korean that he was using for them. I don't know if he ever referenced these "Six Phrases of the Ji Lineage."

This is about as much as I know about the "Six Phrases of the Ji Lineage".

Has anyone heard about this or read about this in any English language books? Does anyone have any more history or usage of the six phrases?

_/|\_
Gregory
Why you do not understand is because the three carts were provisional for former times, and because the One Vehicle is true for the present time. ~ Zen Master 6th Ancestor Huineng
User avatar
Gregory Wonderwheel
Global Moderator
 
Posts: 4235
Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2009 3:07 am
Location: Santa Rosa, California

Re: Six Phrases of the Ji Lineage, have you hear of this?

Postby Ted Biringer on Sun Oct 19, 2014 7:32 am

Gregory Wonderwheel wrote:I've been translating the cases and verses of Japanese Zen Master Keizan's Denkoroku (Record of Transmitting the Light) (傳光録). If you don't know, Keizan was Dogen's great-grandson in the Dharma lineage and is affectionately known as "the mother of Soto" to complement Dogen's title as "the father of Soto." Discussion of that text is for another separate topic.

In translating the cases, I often came across the term "恁麼" "like this" or "in this way." It occurs over and over in this text about the Caodong/Soto lineage ancestors. It turns out that the Soto/Caodong lineage ancestor Shitou (700-790) used it in his transmission with Yaoshan (751-834) at the beginning of the lineage (see the case below) and that it was a favorite expression of Dogen's own teacher Venerable Tiantong Rujing (1163-1228) who used it in the phrase "正當恁麼," "exactly like this" or "just when like this." That four character phrasing appears 11 times in the Recorded Sayings of Venerable Rujing (如淨和尚語錄 [Taisho Tripitaka Vol. 48, No. 2002A]).

So when I looked up 恁麼 in the dictionaries, I learned that it is the core of what is called the "Six Phrases of the Ji Lineage," referring to the lineage of Linji (J. Rinzai) which surprised me since it was a favorite teaching term in the Caodong/Soto lineage as well. But first the definitions.

...Snip...

I also know that Korean Zen Master Seung Sahn taught emphasizing the sayings "like this" and "just like this", and I assume they are the two phrases 恁麼 (like this) and 正當恁麼 (exactly or just like this), but this is just my speculation, since I don't have the Chinese or Korean that he was using for them. I don't know if he ever referenced these "Six Phrases of the Ji Lineage."

This is about as much as I know about the "Six Phrases of the Ji Lineage".

Has anyone heard about this or read about this in any English language books? Does anyone have any more history or usage of the six phrases?

_/|\_
Gregory


Dear Gregory,

Thank you for this fascinating post.

I don’t recall ever having heard of the “Six Phrases of the Ji Lineage.” Thank you for bringing it into my consciousness. Your observations, translations, and citations here make the “Six Phrases” sound very familiar – that is, I can’t help but hear intimations of the Huayen teachings of the “Five Contemplations,” “Ten Gates,” etc. and the Zen teachings of “Five Ranks,” the “Four Alternatives” (i.e. take away the person but leave the environment, take away the environment… etc.), the “Positions of Host and Guest”, etc.

As for the term 恁麼 (thus) your comments seem to suggest that it occurs more frequently in the literature of the Soto/Caodong line than in other lines – am I understanding you correctly here? Not being familiar enough with the Chinese literature, I had assumed that the term ‘thus’ was fairly well established in the Zen/Chan tradition prior to the development of separate lineages. In particular, while I do associate the ‘Zen’ or ‘Chan’ sense of the word with Shitou, I do so in context of its usage by Huineng (who asked Shitou “What is it that comes thus”) which I associate further with the connotation to the Buddha (Tathagata; ‘Thus Come One’).

In any case, Dogen’s usage of the term – not only in the ‘immo’ fascicle, but throughout his works – is certainly the most complex and creative usage I have encountered. Parenthetically speaking, Hee-Jin Kim (who I have to be extremely reliable on all things Dogen) characterizes Dogen’s understanding of ‘thus’ with true nature (Buddha nature, reality, etc.) and regards Dogen’s ‘Person of Thusness’ as being nearly equivalent with Linchi’s ‘True Person of No Rank’ thus:

The ideal image of humanity in Dogen’s thought was called the “person of thusness” (immonin), Dogen’s favorite phrase, which was comparable to the “original countenance” (honrai no memmoku) or the “person of no rank” (mui-shinjin).
Hee-Jin Kim, Ehiei Dogen: Mystical Realist, p.238

For me, second only to my koan training, Dogen’s works have been far and away the most effective turning words to the vast and infinite ‘Dharma-Gate’ of Zen/Buddhism’s insight and presentation (making present) of ‘immo’ (thus). In light of this, I will leave off now by simply citing some more of Hee-Jin Kim’s insight on Dogen’s vision and usage of ‘thusness.’ These passages are not directly related to your OP or to my reply, thus can simply be dismissed – they are, in my view however, packed with potentially insightful wisdom for any that might be interested in that. (And to Gregory, if you read only one passage, check out the last one, agree with it or not, I think you will find it interesting).

[Dogen wrote] A sutra [the Vimalakırti-nirdeYa sutra] says: “When you are nondual with your eating, all things are nondual as well; if all things are nondual, you are also nondual in your eating.” Just let Dharma be one with your eating, and let your eating be one with Dharma. For this reason, if Dharma is Dharma-nature, food is also Dharma-nature. If Dharma is thusness, food is also thusness. If Dharma is One Mind, food is also One Mind. If Dharma is enlightenment, food is also enlightenment…. Therefore, the act of eating constitutes the Dharma of all things. This can be fully comprehended only by and among Buddhas. At the very moment when you eat, you are of ultimate reality, essence, substance, energy, activity, and causation. So Dharma is eating, and eating is Dharma. This Dharma is enjoyed by Buddhas of the past and future. This eating is full of the joy of Dharma and the bliss of meditation.
From Dogen’s Fushukuhampo, translated by Kim, Eihei Dogen: Mystical Realist, p.189

In short, “the other shore” was realized here and now, in and through the practice of bodhisattvahood; it was not a matter of the future, but a matter of the present.

The essence of the bodhisattva ideal was great compassion (mahakaru daihi). It was essentially the reconciliation of the dualistic opposites of self and nonself, sentient and insentient, Buddhas and sentient beings, man and woman, and so forth. As Dogen stated, “The way of the bodhisattva is ‘I am thusness; you are thusness.’” The identity of “I” and “you” in thusness, rather than identity in substance, status, or the like, was the fundamental metaphysical and religious ground of great compassion. This was why Dogen said that when we study ourselves thoroughly, we understand others thoroughly as well; as a result, we cast off the self and the other. The self-other nonduality was most eloquently expressed in Dogen’s exposition on the four virtues of the bodhisattva (bodaisatta-shishoho), which were (1) giving (fuse), (2) loving speech (aigo), (3) service for the welfare of all beings (rigyo), and (4) identity with others (doji).
Hee-Jin Kim, Ehiei Dogen: Mystical Realist, p.208

The meaning of impermanence is not prior to, or independent of, the fact of impermanence. They are mutually identical and interdependent. In other words, myth is reality and reality is myth. Dogen did not believe, as the modern world does, in a dualism between reality and myth in which reality is construed as isolatable from myth so as to attain a progressively greater degree of objectivity; rather, his purport was to clarify, purify, and reinforce myth—that is, Buddha-nature—in order to see and touch reality as it was. What the mythopoeic vision of Buddha-nature produced was not clouded feelings and emotions that coated, hid, or soothed the inexorable reality of impermanence and death, but those feelings and emotions that cleansed in thusness and were embedded in and transparent to that reality.
Hee-Jin Kim, Ehiei Dogen: Mystical Realist, p.166

That is to say, the existential particularities of a given moment constitute a particular position of time, which in turn is a Dharma-position. What makes a particular position of time a Dharma-position is the appropriation of these particularities in such a manner that they are seen nondualistically in and through the mediation of emptiness. As such, the significance of the existential qualities and phenomenalities of things and events is by no means minimized; on the contrary, they are reconstituted, without being naively phenomenalistic, in their true aspect of thusness. “Dharma abides in a Dharma-position” (ho wa hoi ni jusuru nari); therefore, it does not imply that the Dharma-position is in any way a self-limiting manifestation or a temporal instance of eternity. To abide in a Dharma-position should not be construed as instrumental or subsidiary to some idea of eternity, but rather as an end in itself—as eternity in itself. Thus, the act of eating, for example, is viewed as self-sufficient in itself; it is the koan realized in life (genjo-koan).
Hee-Jin Kim, Ehiei Dogen: Mystical Realist, p.155

To be sure, Dogen vehemently attacked those who were entrapped and victimized by the words and doctrines they themselves created; he abhorred a deadly literalism. And yet for him, symbol was to be realized as an expression of the symbolized. This was possible only when symbol was mediated, liberated, and reinstated by the symbolized. Here we see Dogen’s creative and
dynamic interpretation of the Buddhist doctrine of skillful means in which the means in question was not for the transcendence of duality so much as it was for the realization of it. The means and the end were not obliterated but undefiled. Thus, the motif of realization, rather than that of transcendence, was the key motivating force in Dogen’s thought about language and symbols, as in other aspects of his philosophy. This was clearly shown in Dogen’s analysis of the moon reflected on the water:

Shakyamuni Buddha said: “The true Dharma-body of Buddha is like the empty sky, and it manifests itself according to sentient beings like the moon [reflected] on the water.”The “like” in “like the moon [reflected] on the water” should mean the water-moon (sui-getsu) [i.e., the nonduality of the moon and the water]. It should be the water-thusness (sui-nyo), the moon-thusness (getsu-nyo), thusness-on (nyo-chu), and on- thusness (chu-nyo). We are not construing “like” as resemblance: “like” (nyo) is “thusness” (ze).

Quite an ordinary statement of Buddha’s (as translated above in its common-sensical rendering) is transformed suddenly into a profound discourse on the symbol and the symbolized, by making full use of semantic possibilities of the Chinese characters involved in it. The central character nyo means “likeness” and “thusness” simultaneously. Similarly nyo-ze means “like this” as well as “thusness.” Dogen astutely utilized the significant implications of these words. But his deeper underlying motive was thoroughly religious and philosophical—a profound insight into the metaphysic of symbol. Often the symbol and the symbolized are related to each other in terms of a certain likeness; the symbol is said to “point to,” “represent,” or “approximate” the symbolized. Rejecting such a dualism, Dogen contended that “like this” (nyoze) meant that both “like” and “this” were emptiness and hence thusness (nyoze). Instead of saying, “Thusness is like this,” he said: “‘Like this’ is thusness.”

“Like this” did not represent or point to thusness but was thusness. Therefore the symbol was the symbolized.

By articulating the problem in this manner, Dogen did not engage in the absolutization of the symbol or in the relativization of the symbolized, which would have been dualistic. What he did in effect was to show how we can use the symbol in such a way that it becomes the total realization (zenki) or presence (genzen) of the symbolized. Dogen’s view can be best understood in the soteriological context of his mystical realism. This is why Dogen held: “The Buddha-dharma, even in figures of speech (hiyu), is ultimate reality (jisso).” The foregoing observations point to the fact that there is no metaphysical or experiential hiatus between the symbol and the symbolized.
Hee-Jin Kim, Ehiei Dogen: Mystical Realist, pp.84-85

Thanks again.

Please treasure yourself.
Ted
Do not misunderstand Buddhism by believing the erroneous principle ‘a special tradition outside the scriptures.’ Zen Master Dogen, Shobogenzo, Bukkyo (trans. Hee-Jin Kim)
Ted Biringer Author The Flatbed Sutra
User avatar
Ted Biringer
 
Posts: 1110
Joined: Fri Feb 06, 2009 6:11 am
Location: Anacortes, Washington

Re: Six Phrases of the Ji Lineage, have you hear of this?

Postby Gregory Wonderwheel on Mon Oct 20, 2014 9:28 am

Ted Biringer wrote:Dear Gregory,

Thank you for this fascinating post.

I don’t recall ever having heard of the “Six Phrases of the Ji Lineage.” Thank you for bringing it into my consciousness. Your observations, translations, and citations here make the “Six Phrases” sound very familiar – that is, I can’t help but hear intimations of the Huayen teachings of the “Five Contemplations,” “Ten Gates,” etc. and the Zen teachings of “Five Ranks,” the “Four Alternatives” (i.e. take away the person but leave the environment, take away the environment… etc.), the “Positions of Host and Guest”, etc.


Yes, these kinds of numbered schematic teachings are all echoes of each other because they are addressing the same central issues from different perspectives.

Ted Biringer wrote:As for the term 恁麼 (thus) your comments seem to suggest that it occurs more frequently in the literature of the Soto/Caodong line than in other lines – am I understanding you correctly here?


No, I wasn't suggesting higher frequency for the Caodong lineage. I was just saying that in translating the Denkoroku which is the text of Dogen's and Keizan's specific Soto lineage that it came up a lot. What I was suggesting is that the use of term in all lineages demonstrates the common denominator of all Zen lineages.

Personally, I don't translate 恁麼 (Ch. renmo or J. inmo or immo) as "thus" because I reserve "thus" for translating either 如 (ru) or 然 (ran).

Ted Biringer wrote:Not being familiar enough with the Chinese literature, I had assumed that the term ‘thus’ was fairly well established in the Zen/Chan tradition prior to the development of separate lineages. In particular, while I do associate the ‘Zen’ or ‘Chan’ sense of the word with Shitou, I do so in context of its usage by Huineng (who asked Shitou “What is it that comes thus”) which I associate further with the connotation to the Buddha (Tathagata; ‘Thus Come One’).


The term “thus” for the Sanskrit “tatha” is very well established, but it is not this term. This shows why I do not translate 恁麼 (Ch. renmo/J. immo) as “thus,” because the “thus” in 如來 (Ch. rulai, J. nyorai) “Tathagata/Thus Come One” is 如 (Ch. ru, J. nyo).

My understanding is that the story of Huineng’s questioning was with Mazu’s teacher Nanyue Huairang, not Shitou. The connotation between the question and the Tathagata seems appropriate, but the words “like this comes” and “thus come” are different.

The Master Huineng said, “What place do you come from?”
Huairang said, “Mount Song.”
The Master said, “What object comes like this? (什麼物恁麼來)”
Rang said, “To say it appears as an object immediately is not on the mark.”


Ted Biringer wrote:In any case, Dogen’s usage of the term – not only in the ‘immo’ fascicle, but throughout his works – is certainly the most complex and creative usage I have encountered. Parenthetically speaking, Hee-Jin Kim (who I have to be extremely reliable on all things Dogen) characterizes Dogen’s understanding of ‘thus’ with true nature (Buddha nature, reality, etc.) and regards Dogen’s ‘Person of Thusness’ as being nearly equivalent with Linchi’s ‘True Person of No Rank’ thus:

The ideal image of humanity in Dogen’s thought was called the “person of thusness” (immonin), Dogen’s favorite phrase, which was comparable to the “original countenance” (honrai no memmoku) or the “person of no rank” (mui-shinjin).
Hee-Jin Kim, Ehiei Dogen: Mystical Realist, p.238


Dogen was a genius, but Dogen was not the innovator of most of his ideas. By that I mean that virtually everything Dogen wrote about came from somewhere else, and he used it in his innovative poetic style to illuminate it with a fresh light. For example, the term “a person of like this” or “like this person” (恁麼人, J. immonin, Ch. renmoren) was not Dogen’s creation. In his Fascicle “Immo” Dogen acknowledges the term came from Yunju Daoying (J. Ungo). It is also in the 40th Ancestor’s case in the Denkoroku:

The Fortieth Ancestor was Zen Master Tongan Pi [Tongan Daopi] (Doanhi Zenji)

There was a time Yunju instructed by saying, “Desiring to attain the matter of ‘like this,’ one must be a person of ‘like this.’ As one already is a person of ‘like this’, why be anxious about the matter of ‘like this’?”
On hearing it, the Master awakened on his own.


While Dogen did not create the term, what Dogen did so creatively was to articulate its meaning.

The word nyoze is 如是 and literally “thus it is,” “like it is” or “like this.” It’s a different word from 恁麼 “like this,” immo.

I really like the discussion of the symbol and the symbolized with the play of language to show their mutual interpenetration and fundamental nonduality. It has a definite Jungian analytical psychology flavor to it. (To pay tribute to the food imagery.)

_/|\_
Gregory
Why you do not understand is because the three carts were provisional for former times, and because the One Vehicle is true for the present time. ~ Zen Master 6th Ancestor Huineng
User avatar
Gregory Wonderwheel
Global Moderator
 
Posts: 4235
Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2009 3:07 am
Location: Santa Rosa, California

Re: Six Phrases of the Ji Lineage, have you hear of this?

Postby Ted Biringer on Tue Oct 21, 2014 2:36 am

Hello Gregory,

Thank you for your reply.

Gregory Wonderwheel wrote:...
Personally, I don't translate 恁麼 (Ch. renmo or J. inmo or immo) as "thus" because I reserve "thus" for translating either 如 (ru) or 然 (ran).
...
The term “thus” for the Sanskrit “tatha” is very well established, but it is not this term. This shows why I do not translate 恁麼 (Ch. renmo/J. immo) as “thus,” because the “thus” in 如來 (Ch. rulai, J. nyorai) “Tathagata/Thus Come One” is 如 (Ch. ru, J. nyo).
...
The connotation between the question and the Tathagata seems appropriate, but the words “like this comes” and “thus come” are different.


Yes, I think I follow and understand your reasoning here. So do you have a particular word you use to translate 恁麼 (Ch. renmo or J. inmo or immo) besides “thus” – that is, do you always (or nearly always) translate it as “like this”?

And, in any case, do you think that 恁麼 is sometimes used in the Zen/Buddhist literature as if it is synonymous with 如是(and or ‘tatha’ for that matter)- I am thinking mainly in Zen forms of ‘encounter dialogue’? If so, often or rarely?

Gregory Wonderwheel wrote:Dogen was a genius, but Dogen was not the innovator of most of his ideas. By that I mean that virtually everything Dogen wrote about came from somewhere else, and he used it in his innovative poetic style to illuminate it with a fresh light.
...


I agree wholeheartedly. I think that even when Dogen does appear to coin some new term/idea it is rarely (or never) done in a sense that he regards as ‘novel.’ By that I mean that Dogen considers his teachings/expressions about the Dharma as being intrinsic to the Dharma itself, hence always so, if not explicitly than implicitly. His ‘genius,’ as you say, was his gift for illuminating the (already present) “truth/wisdom” of the Dharma in a way, or with a force, that brought it to the attention of hearers/readers that might otherwise not have recognized it for a long time (or never).

In a way, this is true of all great visionaries isn’t it? The truth/reality of things was, is, and always will be the truth/reality of things – none discovers a ‘thusness’ or ‘Buddha nature’ that was previously not thusness or Buddha nature, but the visionary is able to bring attention to that which was not yet seen (either by revealing a previously unseen aspect, or by clarifying implications in a way that makes it accessible to a greater population). This would go a long way, I think, to explaining the reason that all visionaries are doomed to suffer charges (to some degree) of heresy, unorthodoxy, rebellion, etc. The authority of institutions (particularly ‘religious’ ones) depends largely on their claim of (already) possessing 'the truth’ (i.e. being the orthodox) – someone that ‘illumines’ an unrevealed facet or implication of reality is, by their very nature, experienced as a threat by the “established” (fixed) institution.

Gregory Wonderwheel wrote:
While Dogen did not create the term, what Dogen did so creatively was to articulate its meaning.
...


Yes – his capacity to utilize thoughts, words, and deeds in a manner to transmit truth/wisdom (present but not yet seen, or not fully/clearly seen) to others is one reason Dogen’s work merits the widespread respect it receives. As in your example of Dogen’s treatment of “immo”, his creative assimilation and utilization of “genjokoan” is another term worth noting. This term had a long history in Zen before Dogen – it was used, for example, by Yuanwu, commentator of the Hekiganroku – but Dogen brought this term/symbol (hence its reality/symbolized) into a new light - and while its essential meaning is the same (as it was for Yuanwu for example), Dogen's light made it is so widely seen I need not say more.

Gregory Wonderwheel wrote:I really like the discussion of the symbol and the symbolized with the play of language to show their mutual interpenetration and fundamental nonduality. It has a definite Jungian analytical psychology flavor to it. (To pay tribute to the food imagery.)


Yes – and it has a definite Archetypal personifying experience to it also. (To pay tribute to the experiential imagery).

[Note: James Hillman distinguishes “Archetypal Psychology” from (Jung’s) “Analytic Psychology” by pointing out that, among other things, unlike Jung, archetypal psychology does not posit the existence of a ‘noumenal’ (as opposed to ‘phenomenal’) reality – in short, if something exists it is regarded as a phenomenon in archetypal psychology, besides which nothing exists. This is elucidated by Hillman in terms that present a fully nondual vision.]

Thanks again Gregory – happy elucidation!

Cherish it!
Ted
Do not misunderstand Buddhism by believing the erroneous principle ‘a special tradition outside the scriptures.’ Zen Master Dogen, Shobogenzo, Bukkyo (trans. Hee-Jin Kim)
Ted Biringer Author The Flatbed Sutra
User avatar
Ted Biringer
 
Posts: 1110
Joined: Fri Feb 06, 2009 6:11 am
Location: Anacortes, Washington


Return to Sutras & Zen Records

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

 
RocketTheme Joomla Templates

Who is online

In total there is 1 user online :: 0 registered, 0 hidden and 1 guest (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 157 on Mon Sep 19, 2016 8:44 am

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest