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The first noble truth

Re: The first noble truth

Postby desert_woodworker on Thu Mar 05, 2015 2:55 pm

MDD,

Unwanted or unnecessary thoughts are symptomatic of not being awake. I don't see the fear you note, but I see the pathology.

In the wakefulness of the awakened state, Wisdom and Compassion (a.k.a. prajna and karuna) arise simultaneously and spontaneously in closest accord with circumstances: no separation. In the un-awakened state of endless wandering thoughts, they don't.

In the awakened state, one can use all our original human inheritance freely. If thinking is needed, it is accomplished, and leaves no residue. Not so in the unawakened state.

So, it's not thinking, per se, which is a detriment: it's NOT BEING AWAKE. Not being awake is detrimental to ourselves, and others.

Unavoidable? No.

(And so, we practice).

--Joe :Namaste:

macdougdoug wrote:why we so afraid of thoughts?

A) Because we think they bad
B) Because thoughts da master, we da slave

Is this unavoidable situation?
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Re: The first noble truth

Postby macdougdoug on Thu Mar 05, 2015 3:06 pm

chankin1937 wrote:I have attempted to understand why.


what form did this undertaking take? Obviously the danger would be overuse of analytical thought; and the strong influence of one's conditioning.
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Re: The first noble truth

Postby Avisitor on Thu Mar 05, 2015 3:29 pm

chankin1937 wrote:The first point I would like to make is ...
CH

For brevity sake I have shortened the quote of the post to three dots.
This isn't a debate or argument.
Many people believe what they believe.
It is neither wrong nor right. Just a way to make sense of what is taught or learnt.
But, one shouldn't get hung up on words or meaning ... otherwise one is only a scholar and not a disciple of Buddhism.

If however one wishes to expound one's thoughts and meanings of the words and teachings of the Buddha to solidify one's own understanding
Then, so be it. Everyone seems to make their own way. One meets different people along the way.
It all just seems to me to be an expedient means and not something to be caught up in .. like the addict that needs his fix
Also many times, I see others who are arguing ... but they are basically saying the same thing

The toughest part for me was to let it go
To let it go enough .. to listen to others
Being certain of what one believes .. only makes it harder to learn something new.

:heya: :peace:
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Re: The first noble truth

Postby desert_woodworker on Thu Mar 05, 2015 3:36 pm

aV,
You sure about that? :) --Joe

ps (I find it's possible to be "certain" about things, and not have that certainty prevent me from learning something "new", as you say. In fact, the previous knowledge is a platform or scaffold for the new bit. But if the thing to be "learned" is NOT new, but would displace what I already am certain about, THEN there is a dispute about occupancy).

Avisitor wrote:Being certain of what one believes .. only makes it harder to learn something new.
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Re: The first noble truth

Postby fukasetsu on Thu Mar 05, 2015 8:40 pm

desert_woodworker wrote:Fuka,

Indeed. Pluto's rotation period is 6.39 days. About "a week"! And, retrograde (opposite direction from Earth's spin!).

And its "year" is about two-and-a-half centuries long (we'd die before our first birthday!).

Now, how does this relate to the First of the Four Noble Truths? "Sufferations"!, I'll discipline myself to stay more on topic.

--Joe

fukasetsu wrote:Sure thing Joe, on Pluto one really needs a strong practise (unless split up in 6 naps)


When clinging to rotation disappear, so too does self-centeredness, when being moved by every appearance 'gravity' pulls you to dark places.
Mijn Oude Vriend uit de woestijn begrijpt geen Nederlands. <3
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Re: The first noble truth

Postby Avisitor on Thu Mar 05, 2015 8:46 pm

Avisitor wrote:Being certain of what one believes .. only makes it harder to learn something new.


desert_woodworker wrote:aV,
You sure about that? :) --Joe

ps (I find it's possible to be "certain" about things, and not have that certainty prevent me from learning something "new", as you say. In fact, the previous knowledge is a platform or scaffold for the new bit. But if the thing to be "learned" is NOT new, but would displace what I already am certain about, THEN there is a dispute about occupancy).


Hey Joe,
Are you certain that you know what you know is for real and can not be changed under any circumstances??
Einstein was certain that God does not play dice with the universe.
However, we ended up with Quantum Theory.
If Einstein could not bend his ways then he could not learn that the universe is more mysterious than he ever thought it could be.
And that from a guy who could envision time slowing down as the speed approaches light speed.

If you are certain that the earth was flat then how can you ever learn that the world is round??
If you want to be certain that water is wet and learn that heating up water will create steam then lets compare apples and oranges.
Thanks for the flip side ... hahaha
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Re: The first noble truth

Postby desert_woodworker on Thu Mar 05, 2015 9:58 pm

aV,

I was checking how sure ("certain"... ) YOU were about your conclusion. It seems you do not pass the test. Now, is that good, or bad? ;)

Einstein's distaste for QM was for the interpretation of it ("Copenhagen Interpretation"), NOT for its "working" as well as it obviously does. Anyway, it's not a complete theory, and at best is provisional, until somebody cuter comes walking down the street, ...like all scientific theories. I can live with that, yessiree.

I was never certain the world was "flat", after I was about 4 years old. Sputnik was launched when I was 5, and I was paying attention! So, don't think so badly of me!, or take me to task (not about this, anyway). ;)

If something is "new", as you call it, and not identical to what you know ("old"), then there's no conflict, and you can "learn" it.

But if merely a new slant on something "old" comes along -- say, a new theory of gravity -- then it's just gonna have to prove itself, if you're a scientist as I am, before we jump to conclusions and gullibly "learn" it. I mean, there are tons of "cranks" out there peddling all sorts of uninformed gibberish. Caveat emptor! One must be skeptical, curious, balanced, and honest, approaching these things. Anyway, that's SCIENCE for you, ideally. And I'd say it lives up to the ideal, about ideally.

See, in any case, Thomas Kuhn: THE STRUCTURE OF SCIENTIFIC REVOLUTIONS (1962).

(50th Anniversary edition is out from Princeton, 2012).

Cheers, and w/ my best rgds,

Enjoy Full Moon,

--Joe

Avisitor wrote:
desert_woodworker wrote:Are you SURE about that?

Are you certain that you know what you know is for real and can not be changed under any circumstances??
Einstein was certain that God does not play dice with the universe.
However, we ended up with Quantum Theory.
If Einstein could not bend his ways then he could not learn that the universe is more mysterious than he ever thought it could be.
And that from a guy who could envision time slowing down as the speed approaches light speed.

If you are certain that the earth was flat then how can you ever learn that the world is round??
If you want to be certain that water is wet and learn that heating up water will create steam then lets compare apples and oranges.
Thanks for the flip side ... hahaha
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Re: The first noble truth

Postby Avisitor on Thu Mar 05, 2015 10:40 pm

desert_woodworker wrote:aV,

I was checking how sure ("certain"... ) YOU were about your conclusion. It seems you do not pass the test. Now, is that good, or bad? ;)

... if you're a scientist as I am,

See, in any case, Thomas Kuhn: THE STRUCTURE OF SCIENTIFIC REVOLUTIONS (1962).

(50th Anniversary edition is out from Princeton, 2012).

Cheers, and w/ my best rgds,

Enjoy Full Moon,

--Joe


Sorry I did not pass the certainty test.
That's not so bad.
And I am no scientist.
I am more of a troubleshooter of electronic circuits and microwaves with an eye towards mechanical design engineering
No real degree ... mostly self taught.
But, that is the past.
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Re: The first noble truth

Postby desert_woodworker on Thu Mar 05, 2015 10:54 pm

aV,

But you get to decide if not passing the "certainty"-test is good or bad, so don't be so premature with "sorry... ".

You see, you aver that certainty is not so good. And I question THAT statement and ask, "Are you CERTAIN?" This puts you in a bind. At least as far as that statement goes.

You're maybe like, "The barber who shaves everybody in town who does not shave himself". Now, I ask, who shaves the barber?

HUH?!

--Joe

ps I work on hardware, too. Must. I can't stand too-clean hands. Never could. Even for the degrees, I had to have dirty hands. Experimentalist. I don't disparage theory, but I've got to get my exercise. Itchy fingers, palms, and eyes. Books aren't my favorite edifiers. Going back to work!: was called-in to work on the asteroid-lander suite of cameras. Pretty pleased! Maybe starting in a week or two. About 545 days before launch: but who's counting? :) I must burst myself out of this ice-cube called experimental early-retirement. I tried it: had a good four years! Fingers crossed (and legs in lotus), for the next phase.

Avisitor wrote:
desert_woodworker wrote:aV,

I was checking how sure ("certain"... ) YOU were about your conclusion. It seems you do not pass the test. Now, is that good, or bad? ;)

... if you're a scientist as I am,

See, in any case, Thomas Kuhn: THE STRUCTURE OF SCIENTIFIC REVOLUTIONS (1962).

(50th Anniversary edition is out from Princeton, 2012).

Cheers, and w/ my best rgds,

Enjoy Full Moon,

--Joe


Sorry I did not pass the certainty test.
That's not so bad.
And I am no scientist.
I am more of a troubleshooter of electronic circuits and microwaves with an eye towards mechanical design engineering
No real degree ... mostly self taught.
But, that is the past.
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Re: The first noble truth

Postby desert_woodworker on Fri Mar 06, 2015 1:16 am

Small world. The research group here in Tucson, at the University of Arizona, in Psychology, is hosting Prof. Al Kazniak. Details below, about his talk next Wednesday on the First Noble Truth; the announcement here gives a short appreciation of the translation of the Pali word, "Dukkha".

I've had minimal contact with these folks and this series of talks.

Prof. Al has had me in his lab with 32 electrodes on my head, while I sat zazen, about 12 years ago, and several others; plus Musicians who did not have a meditation practice; and, people who were neither meditators nor musicians. This pilot study led to funding a larger study.

I'm intrigued that he is now also a Sensei in Soto Zen Buddhism. I must go see him again! --Joe

---------------------------------------------

Dear AMRIG,

We hope to see you on March 11th for our next community talk, presented by
Dr. Al Kaszniak! Talk details are as follows:

*Can Science Contribute to Transforming the Delusion of Self?*

*Presented by Dr. Al Kaszniak, Ph.D., professor of Psychology, Neurology
and Psychiatry at the University of Arizona, and teacher (Sensei) in the
Soto tradition of Zen Buddhism. *

*Wednesday, March 11th @ 5:00pm*

*University of Arizona Psychology Building, Room 207 *[Room 207 can be
accessed from the courtyard outside the main entrance of the Psychology building.]

*Abstract: *In the contemplative path of Buddhism, the first ennobling
truth is that of dukkha, a Pali word that is often understood as suffering,
but perhaps better translated as unsatisfactoriness, a pervasive sense of
insufficiency or lack. This tradition claims that there is the possibility
of liberation from dukkha by transformation of its causes, and recognizes
the causal role of delusion concerning the nature of self. In this
presentation and discussion, we will explore the question of whether
science has anything to contribute to exploring this path and specifically
to understanding transformation of the delusion of self.

Please also *save the date* for these upcoming AMRIG talks by University of
Arizona faculty and graduate students:

*Wednesday, April 15th @ 5:00pm*: Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor, Ph.D.,
Assistant Professor of Psychology
*Wednesday, April 29th @ 6:30pm*: Dev Ashish, M.A., Doctoral candidate in
Clinical Psychology
*Monday, May 4th (time TBA)*: Dr. Hester E. Oberman, Ph.D., Lecturer and
Medical Humanities Liaison, College of Humanities

Additional details about these upcoming events will follow. Also, a
reminder that AMRIG's Introduction to Mindfulness class is still ongoing
and will continue through April 8th. Newcomers are welcome! Details about
this class and other events that you may find to be of interest are
provided below.

Warmly,

Deanna and the AMRIG board

www.amrig.org

www.facebook.com/azmeditationresearch


*AMRIG practice offerings*

*Introduction to Mindfulness with Kaishin (Blake Ashley)*

This 6-week mindfulness meditation class is led by Kaishin (Blake Ashley)
of the Tucson Community Meditation Center. Beginners are welcome and no
experience is necessary. This is a great opportunity to learn to practice
meditation in a guided and supportive environment.

*When: *Wednesday evenings from 6:30-7:30pm from January 28th through April
8th.

*Where: *The University of Arizona Psychology Building, Room 323.

*Questions?* Please feel free to email Blake at blake.ashley@comcast.net if
you have any questions about the class.
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Re: The first noble truth

Postby Avisitor on Sat Mar 07, 2015 4:02 am

desert_woodworker wrote:aV,

You see, you aver that certainty is not so good.
--Joe

No, I didn't say that. That is an interpretation of what I said.
I said that "Being certain of what one believes .. only makes it harder to learn something new."
Never said it was bad or good. Just that believing in one's own interpretation of things makes it difficult to learn something new.
To interpret it as good or bad .. that is the activity of one's mind.
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Re: The first noble truth

Postby desert_woodworker on Sat Mar 07, 2015 4:17 am

aV,

Yes, well I deny that TOO. For all the same reasons. Go back and review, pls. I won't bore us, all, by reiterating.

When what one believes (by demonstration and proof, as in Science, e.g.) -- and what is "new" (as you make them sound, by stipulating "new") -- are unrelated, then there is no conflict. That is my only (simple!) point. Check it. Check it!

Kuhn's book is a great one,

--Joe

ps In any case, I never believed that you were the barber who shaved everyone who doesn't shave himself. It was just an indication and example of the bind you're in, saying or believing what you've said. Check it. No biggie. You may recant... .

Avisitor wrote:
desert_woodworker wrote:You see, you aver that certainty is not so good.


I said that "Being certain of what one believes .. only makes it harder to learn something new."
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Re: The first noble truth

Postby Avisitor on Sat Mar 07, 2015 1:38 pm

desert_woodworker wrote:aV,

Yes, well I deny that TOO. For all the same reasons. Go back and review, pls. I won't bore us, all, by reiterating.

When what one believes (by demonstration and proof, as in Science, e.g.) -- and what is "new" (as you make them sound, by stipulating "new") -- are unrelated, then there is no conflict. That is my only (simple!) point. Check it. Check it!

Kuhn's book is a great one,

--Joe

ps In any case, I never believed that you were the barber who shaved everyone who doesn't shave himself. It was just an indication and example of the bind you're in, saying or believing what you've said. Check it. No biggie. You may recant... .



I already said thanks for the flip side ....
Comparing apples and oranges ...
I got your point.
But, it seems that you are still certain of what you believe to be true ... hahahaha
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Re: The first noble truth

Postby desert_woodworker on Sat Mar 07, 2015 11:31 pm

aV,

Well, whether I'm certain or not -- I needn't press the point uselessly further -- suffice it to say I am not one to tell falsehoods. Nor to mis-represent Nature.

Check out Kuhn. BTW, his book is the reason that the word "paradigm" is popular lately (past 50 years). But not everybody appreciates that the word comes actually from Language studies, and is just wearing new clothes. Anyway, it "works" in both realms.

Finished!

All's well that Enso's well,

--Joe :O:

Avisitor wrote:I got your point.
But, it seems that you are still certain of what you believe to be true ...
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