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A fresh look at the 3NT

Re: A fresh look at the 3NT

Postby desert_woodworker on Tue Feb 24, 2015 6:18 pm

Will you please say which one of the Four Noble Truths you are leaving out of consideration?

It may make things clearer, and make replies more pertinent.

thanks,

--Joe
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Re: A fresh look at the 3NT

Postby Herbie on Tue Feb 24, 2015 6:38 pm

Chrisd wrote:"you guys"? There's no "you guys"!

What was ment was "I consider you to be one of the followers of Zen buddhism, so I assume you will be saying what those followers usually say."

Chrisd wrote:Maybe best to find one teacher/person that is an inspiration to you so you can develop with him/her. You don't need an entire system of ppl.

:lol2:
Inspiration is where creativity is. No need for teacher since I am no student.
Although we don't know anything, let's make words! Words are inspiring.
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Re: A fresh look at the 3NT

Postby fukasetsu on Tue Feb 24, 2015 6:53 pm

Chrisd wrote:There's no "you guys"!


Then how did these words come about?
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Re: A fresh look at the 3NT

Postby Chrisd on Tue Feb 24, 2015 7:00 pm

fukasetsu wrote:
Chrisd wrote:There's no "you guys"!


Then how did these words come about?


Well still no-place? They just do. The brain?

To Herbie I meant there's people with different views, not one.
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Re: A fresh look at the 3NT

Postby fukasetsu on Tue Feb 24, 2015 7:07 pm

Chrisd wrote:
Well still no-place? They just do. The brain?


Guessing is not paying attention :PP:

Thoughts are momentary and arise due to conditions, but what is the relation?

Then what does "is" and "is no(t)" mean?
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Re: A fresh look at the 3NT

Postby Michaeljc on Tue Feb 24, 2015 7:44 pm

Anders wrote:
Michaeljc wrote:Well, yes, but Zen meditation does not hone the brains ability to process. Quite the opposite in fact. It is nothing like sleep either. Meditation sets the brain/mind free. We lose control over it.


If, by process, we mean "ability of consciousness to work in different modes." then how on earth can you say Zen meditation doesn't hone this?


By process I meant as a computer does. This was in reply to someone very new to Zen. I was speaking in a language that I felt appropriate to that situation :) We do such people no favours by indulging in endless philosophising on Zen. They commonly get the wrong picture
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Re: A fresh look at the 3NT

Postby Chrisd on Tue Feb 24, 2015 8:07 pm

fukasetsu wrote:
Chrisd wrote:
Well still no-place? They just do. The brain?


Guessing is not paying attention :PP:

Thoughts are momentary and arise due to conditions, but what is the relation?

Then what does "is" and "is no(t)" mean?


The relation between what? The body? Sense of being?

Is means there's a sense of something being in relation to the body, with is not there's peace. But I can't see that unrelated to the body either, I think. I dunno what you'd be driving at.
My brain would tell me it's all body-related, but I suppose that's an added thought...
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Re: A fresh look at the 3NT

Postby fukasetsu on Wed Feb 25, 2015 4:06 pm

Chrisd wrote:The relation between what?


You just demonstrated it, how could one miss it?

Would you have thought this right now if you wouldn't have read it? Everything needs its own absence.
So what's the relation between whatever happens/appears?
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Re: A fresh look at the 3NT

Postby Chrisd on Wed Feb 25, 2015 4:34 pm

ok no relation
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Re: A fresh look at the 3NT

Postby fukasetsu on Wed Feb 25, 2015 4:50 pm

Chrisd wrote:ok no relation


No, since everything needs its own absence everything is related (or void of own being), since nothing exists (appears, comes into being etc) by itself. When mind comes into being the various conceptions comes to be, so whenever one says "relation - no relation" "self-not self" "is and is not" and grants it any substantiality one does not see duality is void.

Just pay attention 24/7, waking up to make some coffee is as much the teaching of the dharma (the 4NB etc) then reading an infamous sutra or visiting an eminent teacher, they go hand in hand ofcourse. Don't concern your mind with seeking, learning and understanding, just observe. :)
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Re: A fresh look at the 3NT

Postby Chrisd on Wed Feb 25, 2015 5:04 pm

I agree and it sounds pretty but I don't think that's the style of my mind as of yet.
Learning, seeking and understanding comes up. Just observing hardly happens except in the being conscious of what happens in what I just described. I'm talking in relation to humans and with pain/pleasure there, when I'm eating I'm just enjoying the food.
My body tells me this is the right way...
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Re: A fresh look at the 3NT

Postby fukasetsu on Wed Feb 25, 2015 5:12 pm

Chrisd wrote:I agree and it sounds pretty but I don't think that's the style of my mind as of yet.


But here's the thing, I have no mind of my own, thoughts of my own, religion or path of my own. perception of my own, attitude of my own, consciousness etc. Learning, seeking, understanding comes up but what you are seeking is seeking you ;)

Miss it and it's like leaving the house tracking elephant footprints while you have one in your very home.

Drop any style of mind. :peace:
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Re: A fresh look at the 3NT

Postby Chrisd on Wed Feb 25, 2015 5:14 pm

maybe
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Re: A fresh look at the 3NT

Postby fukasetsu on Wed Feb 25, 2015 5:19 pm

Chrisd wrote:I'm talking in relation to humans and with pain/pleasure there, when I'm eating I'm just enjoying the food.
My body tells me this is the right way...



ashtavakra gita 3.jpg


:EEK:

A common mistake practisioners make is saying I'm not the food on this plate, but when they eat it and enjoy the food or have a belly pain, then they call it "my pain" "my pleasure" Observe it, without parsing any judgment. :)
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Re: A fresh look at the 3NT

Postby Chrisd on Wed Feb 25, 2015 11:36 pm

Still it would appear some awakened people miss the reality of the brain. Its not just going to explode it needs time to adjust and practices can help sometimes, maybe speed it up.
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Re: A fresh look at the 3NT

Postby desert_woodworker on Wed Feb 25, 2015 11:42 pm

Chris,

Err-r, uh, if they're awake, and you're not, do you really mean that they may be missing something that you're hip to? Awaiting yer answer... . ;) --Joe

Chrisd wrote:Still it would appear some awakened people miss the reality of the brain.
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Re: A fresh look at the 3NT

Postby fukasetsu on Thu Feb 26, 2015 12:51 am

Chrisd wrote:Still it would appear some awakened people miss the reality of the brain.


You sound like a Dutch scientist I had a talk with just a few hours ago, his entire arrogance (not you in this case) about big bangs and so called 'proofs' about beginnings was swiped away by kindergarden dharma, how can that which comes after know anything about what precedes it? The brain is but a tool, and whatever science or measurement is detected is a superimposition, remember Mind cannot be used to get something from mind. Don't make it a forwarding address.

Who were you 10 days before you were born? Can the brain give you an answer? No, our practise is to invite proper inquiry which cuts of the mind because it cannot be answered by mind, so it takes you beyond the mind, I believe it was Bodhidharma who said using the mind to look for reality is delusion, not using the mind to look for reality is awareness. Huang Po stressed the same point.

I'm proud of you but you're to easily influenced by ideas and theories (sorry if that sounds too whatever)
As said earlier you already have exactly what you need for realization, no need to seek external theories, they can never tell you what you are, or anything about reality.
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Re: A fresh look at the 3NT

Postby Chrisd on Thu Feb 26, 2015 12:29 pm

Well liberation appears to be almost always preceded by meditation, searching, effort. So time does appear to play a role. Maybe the brain is distorting the view and then it gets cleared up so the light can shine through it totally?

I dunno if I'm influenced by ideas and theories. They come and go and I have some enjoyment and frustration here and there. My inquiry is usually about the emotional aspect behind them. I've noticed that people do not just reason and theorize, they usually (99.99%?) have particular desires and structures that motivate it. When I put my attention on it it would appear I'm feeling into that structure, seeing how much of it is in myself and thereby detaching myself from it. Dunno if that made sense.
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Re: A fresh look at the 3NT

Postby Chrisd on Thu Feb 26, 2015 12:55 pm

desert_woodworker wrote:Chris,

Err-r, uh, if they're awake, and you're not, do you really mean that they may be missing something that you're hip to? Awaiting yer answer... . ;) --Joe

Chrisd wrote:Still it would appear some awakened people miss the reality of the brain.


Good question. Nobody is perfect? I may be able to add to their knowledge a bit so they can help others and themselves better. Awakenings appear to me complicated business. My focus is mostly on the underlying emotional attachments though. I wish to understand them emotionally/intuitively and thereby be freed of them myself. I understand this is my business and not necessarily that of others so I can connect with others in and on their game (primary interest) to the extent that it matches my own. Usually there is overlap, emotional attachments come in on pretty much all conversation so Im good.
I find this both annoying and fascinating. I havent found an "off switch" so ive assumed this is just my path. I have hope itll come to an end this year.
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Re: A fresh look at the 3NT

Postby Herbie on Thu Feb 26, 2015 4:13 pm

Chrisd wrote:Well liberation appears to be almost always preceded by meditation, searching, effort. So time does appear to play a role. Maybe the brain is distorting the view and then it gets cleared up so the light can shine through it totally?

I dunno if I'm influenced by ideas and theories.

Of course you are... "liberation" ... what?

Chrisd wrote: They come and go and I have some enjoyment and frustration here and there. My inquiry is usually about the emotional aspect behind them. I've noticed that people do not just reason and theorize, they usually (99.99%?) have particular desires and structures that motivate it. When I put my attention on it it would appear I'm feeling into that structure, seeing how much of it is in myself and thereby detaching myself from it. Dunno if that made sense.

Detaching makes sense only if you have a corresponding theory
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