Welcome admin !

It is currently Wed Sep 20, 2017 5:36 pm
Pathway:  Board index Zen Discussion Forum Zen Practice & Philosophy Zen Buddhism Sōtō

Zen Buddhism?

Discussion of Japanese Sōtō Zen / 曹洞宗

Re: Zen Buddhism?

Postby desert_woodworker on Thu Jul 21, 2016 4:00 pm

At the end of Jack Kornfield's book, MODERN BUDDHIST MASTERS, we have a few pages of his considerations of the "Yanas", especially Hinayana and Mahayana.

(since Kornfield himself uses the word "Hinayana", it probably isn't a word that is quite as anathema as some take it to be for themselves. But that's a different topic, treated elsewhere. I take it that "Hinayana" is thus still a good word, among at least some of the Achaans).

Images below are of the pages in question where he discusses the Yanas, the "vehicles" of Buddhist practice, historically.

Kornfield echoes a point made in this thread, that the various approaches within one Yana are freely available also in other Yanas as well. TigerDuck made this point in page One of the present thread.

TigerDuck wrote:

TigerDuck wrote:It is incorrect to say that Pali sutta is not available in Mahayana.

Pali sutta and Mahayana agama are actually equivalent with a little discrepancy.

(Now, if sutta and agama include more than words, I find myself in agreement, BTW, FWIW)

These page images are from the text as given free online by Google, where the entire book may be read at:

http://books.google.com/books?id=8InEkE ... e&q&f=true

The page images here are pages 317-318 and 319-320.

--Joe

kornfield_1.jpg

kornfield_2.jpg
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
User avatar
desert_woodworker
 
Posts: 7015
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2012 5:09 am
Location: southern Arizona, USA

Re: Zen Buddhism?

Postby zafu on Mon Jul 25, 2016 6:41 am

desert_woodworker wrote:z.,

I "really" don't either.

zafu wrote:I really dont think theres anything wrong with seeng, investigating or acknowledging difference.
It sometimes happens that when you look keenly for "difference", difference is all you see.


I like that....thanks....
zafu
 
Posts: 124
Joined: Wed May 16, 2012 12:19 pm

Re: Zen Buddhism?

Postby zafu on Mon Jul 25, 2016 6:50 am

Thanks again Joe! I'll read that between patients today in work!
zafu
 
Posts: 124
Joined: Wed May 16, 2012 12:19 pm

Re: Zen Buddhism?

Postby desert_woodworker on Fri Sep 16, 2016 4:29 pm

C.,

On reviewing the topic today, I remembered that there was something I wanted to add in appreciation of the two questions you posed (one of which was Aitken Roshi's):

Caodemarte wrote:As Robert Aitken wrote, what difference would it make to Zen practice if it was shown that the historical Buddha never lived? His guess was not much. If Einstein was shown to be a mythical figure, how would that affect the truth or falsity of the equations?

What I have to add is a statement made, I think, by a Shakespeare scholar, who, in the wake of some continued controversy or ongoing study of the authorship of the plays of Shakespeare, said, about the plays,

"They were written either by Shakespeare, or by someone else of the same name."

--Joe

p.s. ;) right, again, not much difference made, I think. -J.
User avatar
desert_woodworker
 
Posts: 7015
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2012 5:09 am
Location: southern Arizona, USA

Re: Zen Buddhism?

Postby cam101+ on Sun Oct 02, 2016 11:35 am

I think that when we say that something is or is not Buddhism, then we have a problem (although I will occasionally do it myself!). Also, when we say "this is my opinion", then we definitely have a problem. That is duality. From my perspective, I would go w/ what Suzuki wrote in Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind...."To study Buddhism is to study ourselves. To study ourselves is to forget ourselves". This is the true meaning of Buddhism, but when we just say the word Buddhism, we again create problems.

I prefer words like the dharma, the teaching, the practice, the path, etc. This makes our practice inclusive of all true spiritual paths, not just Buddhism. What Siddhartha discovered is not exclusive to Buddhism, there were and are many people from different spiritual traditions who have discovered similar truths using many different means.
cam101+
 
Posts: 41
Joined: Thu May 12, 2016 9:24 pm

Re: Zen Buddhism?

Postby desert_woodworker on Sun Oct 02, 2016 2:41 pm

101,

Suzuki Roshi was quoting Dogen when he spoke that part of Dogen's famous ditty in that talk which was then transcribed in that book attributed to Suzuki. So, don't give the Roshi too much credit.

The ditty continues beyond the few steps that were quoted, and the further steps are further inspirational and descriptive.

Buddhism and/or Buddhadharma is medicine, or a medicine. A medicine for waking up as the Founder did. That there are other medicines with other origins, as you point out, is not in question.

What is in question is whether the other systems and regimens stop short of -- or veer from -- bringing the practitioner to seeing true nature, and to emptiness, after which true Wisdom and true Compassion can then arise unimpeded (especially with continued practice).

To answer that, one can become a disciple of each path in turn, under the best teachers (for you) in each other path ("religion"). Without that commitment to personal experimentation with one's entire body and mind in the ways of other paths ("religions"), speculation about the results of cultivation in the practices of other paths would be just that, speculation, and, I'd say, woefully and entirely uninformed, unfortunately.

Strong practice,

--Joe
User avatar
desert_woodworker
 
Posts: 7015
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2012 5:09 am
Location: southern Arizona, USA

Re: Zen Buddhism?

Postby cam101+ on Sun Nov 13, 2016 7:42 am

Reading all this is so similar to reading about Baptists argue their point with Catholics, Mormons arguing their view w/ non Mormons, etc, that it's really clear that Buddhism hasn't changed us unless we let go of our attachments.

The original post seemed clear enough, and everyone went their own merry way after that. At no time did I read that the original poster was quoting someone that was putting one particular form of Buddhism down, just pointing out a difference. If that person didn't feel that something wasn't Buddhist, that is not a put down, only an observation fostered from a particular view. Tibetan Buddhism isn't "pure" Buddhism either, it's a hybrid of the Bon religion and Buddhism, but to say it isn't Buddhist isn't a criticism, merely an observation. Labels are terrible things.

None of us should be Buddhists anyway. As the Dali Lama said, the last thing that the world needs is another Buddhist, what the world needs is a kind person. Buddha wasn't a Buddhist and Christ wasn't a Christian. Whatever lineage enables us to wake up is the correct lineage, and that will vary from person to person. Whether or not that happens by one Buddhist lineage or another, or even by Buddhism at all, is totally irrelevant to waking up. No one group owns that, no one path leads to it.
cam101+
 
Posts: 41
Joined: Thu May 12, 2016 9:24 pm

Re: Zen Buddhism?

Postby desert_woodworker on Sun Nov 13, 2016 8:07 am

101,

If one doesn't want to, or cannot, experiment at full-immersion in each path of interest, that's OK, and can be forgiven, with certain provisos.

But to say that all paths are equivalent without doing that immersion into particular practice traditions is frivolous conjecture, and insulting to each and every path.

The Dalai Lama remains a Buddhist in robes for a variety of reasons. He represents that his religion is kindness. But that religion is transmitted by formal and traditional training (practice) worked-out over centuries, and backed by millennia of contact with other forms of Buddhism (as well as by the native Tibetan Bon religion).

In the Mahayana/Vajrayana, the point of practice, anyway, is to open the heart of true Compassion, informed by true Wisdom. Other paths may lead to other ends, and usually do. That's the important point that's at issue, and it's perennial.

--Joe
User avatar
desert_woodworker
 
Posts: 7015
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2012 5:09 am
Location: southern Arizona, USA

Previous

Return to Sōtō

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

 
RocketTheme Joomla Templates

Who is online

In total there is 1 user online :: 0 registered, 0 hidden and 1 guest (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 157 on Mon Sep 19, 2016 8:44 am

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest