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Question about stuff

Discussion of Japanese Sōtō Zen / 曹洞宗

Re: Question about stuff

Postby chankin1937 on Sun Feb 07, 2016 2:38 pm

noorcasta,
chankin1937 wrote:Zen is simply a method to enhance ordinary everyday feelings of contentment, fulfilment and peace of mind – conventionally called happiness - the common human gaol.


desert woodworker[Joe} wrote: There is no "zen", as such. There is, however, Zen Buddhism, and Zen Buddhist practice. The practices are learned in-person from a living teacher, and practiced together with the group of people -- other practitioners -- associated with that teacher (say, your teacher).


Hello Noorcasta,
As you have probably realised by now, there is a conflict of views here.
As Bodhidharma said : “Zen is a teaching outside the scriptures, it is a direct pointing at the mind of man.” It does not include the complications of general Buddhist beliefs in its remit.
So Zen exists as a separate entity in that respect. If you read any book on Zen you will find that the author frequently talks of Zen. The claim that you can only practice with others in the company of a teacher is obvious nonsense. You can do it that way or you can do it on your own – which ultimately you have to do any way. No one can enlighten you – you have to do it yourself. And there is always the internet.

Note please too, that the so-called "meditation" that some poseurs speak of is not necessarily ZAZEN.


If you are doing your best to abstain from all conscious mental activity during meditation , you are on the right track. Nobody can improve on that advice. You will soon notice the benefits in terms of a growing familiarity with peace-of-mind. The very phrase “peace-of-mind” carries connotations of rest from mental work – avoiding will-effort.


Zazen is learned from Zen Buddhist teachers. Nothing written-down anywhere (book; internet) is of much use unless one first has a Zen Buddhist teacher and sangha to learn and practice with. Trying to practice from "written-teachings" can lead one to follow outer-paths, ways that are NOT Buddhist, and which, from the Zen Buddhist perspective, are NOT correct practice, and hence will not lead to a correct result (that of seeing one's nature).


These written teachings Joe so irreverently disparages are the work of the great minds of Zen and are abundantly clear. Joe will tell you that no one can understand them unless they are enlightened. Obviously enlightened people don’t need to understand them – they are “on the other side” in Zen parlance. The words of the ancients are designed to guide aspirants and do it very well.

These are my cautions. Other practitioners would caution much the same, and I note that some teachers here have also made such cautions.


The teachers Joe mentioned earn their living from their sanghas so they are obviously a bit miffed when I tell people attendance is optional. They will tell you I am not a Zennie and don’t practice. Ask yourself, how could they know anything about me?
If you are unsure why zazen works, press the blue button on the left.

Colin
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Re: Question about stuff

Postby desert_woodworker on Sun Feb 07, 2016 3:31 pm

chankin1937 wrote:The teachers Joe mentioned earn their living from their sanghas so they are obviously a bit miffed when I tell people attendance is optional. They will tell you I am not a Zennie and don’t practice.

Hmm, not so. Many teachers have other jobs. Some are retired and have pensions from previous work.

All the teachers you ignorantly quote were monastics who lived by begging, or by traditional dana to their monasteries. Dana is one of the paramitas, if you want to know. The paramitas are "perfections", but they are also practices.

Let's see: you were paid by the taxpayers of England. You made a living from the Citizens' collective! Shame on you! You were never needed! I suppose you are "miffed" to learn that. And I bet you're still drawing some sort of government pay, for continuing to be totally unnecessary and un-useful. Tsk-tsk-tsk.

You don't practice zazen, and don't practice with a sangha, nor a teacher. Well, that's three strikes out of the necessary three. You're on an outer-path, practicing -- if at all -- on that outer-path, and not as a Zen Buddhist. That is, your way is not the way of the Zen Buddhist monastics you misinterpret and quote.

Ask yourself, how could they know anything about me?

'Cuz you write "tell-all" postings and manifestos, exposing all your errors of interpretation and judgement to public view. That's how.

I do hope that's clear, now, Colin, and all Readers.

--Joe
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Re: Question about stuff

Postby chankin1937 on Mon Feb 08, 2016 1:43 pm

Joe,
chankin1937 wrote:The teachers Joe mentioned earn their living from their sanghas so they are obviously a bit miffed when I tell people attendance is optional. They will tell you I am not a Zennie and don’t practice.


Hmm, not so. Many teachers have other jobs. Some are retired and have pensions from previous work.


Hello Joe,
Are you telling me that they teach for free; that attendance in the sangha costs nothing?

All the teachers you ignorantly quote …….


They are invariably quotes by Masters who knew what they were talking about.

Let's see: you were paid by the taxpayers of England. You made a living from the Citizens' collective! Shame on you! You were never needed! I suppose you are "miffed" to learn that. And I bet you're still drawing some sort of government pay, for continuing to be totally unnecessary and un-useful. Tsk-tsk-tsk.


Does your condemnation apply to every pensioner, including you?
I was a civil servant for 32 years. I devoted my life to serving the public. You, on the other hand spent much of your life observing the galaxy. What meaningful contribution did you make? Who funded your work? Government grants?

{This is fun!} :lol2:

You don't practice zazen, and don't practice with a sangha, nor a teacher. Well, that's three strikes out of the necessary three. You're on an outer-path, practicing -- if at all -- on that outer-path, and not as a Zen Buddhist. That is, your way is not the way of the Zen Buddhist monastics you misinterpret and quote.


Have you noticed that there is never anything constructive or helpful in your posts?
You are always carping on about faults you imagine - like me never practicing.
I have had the best teachers in the world - the Zen Masters. I practice regularly thank you.

You obviously can’t get anything from their wisdom which they published in the public domain to help aspirants. This wisdom was not intended to help those who had already” passed over”. Those people already knew everything they needed to know.
What does that tell us about Joe? He is trapped in a web of misunderstanding and bigotry.” Only my way is the right way” is his mantra.
Press the blue button and learn what it’s all about, Joe.

The first Buddha must have done it on his own and I don’t mean Gotama. Anyone can.

In “The teachings of the Compassionate Buddha” “ Early discourses, the Dhammapada and later basic writings” Edited with commentary by E.A.Burtt we get on page 53.
In Ashvagosha’s “Life of the Buddha” The Tathagata says ,
“No teacher have I. None need I venerate and none must I despise. Nirvava have I now obtained, and I am not the same as others are. Quite by myself, you see, have I the Dharma won. Completely have I understood what must be understood, though others failed to understand it That is the reason why I am a Buddha.”
Colin
chankin1937
 

Re: Question about stuff

Postby noorcasta on Mon Feb 08, 2016 3:49 pm

Joe and Colin: There is no nonillusory reality. Opaque seeing is intrinsic to human knowledge. Any assertion is value-ladden. All is relative. (Samsara is nirvana.)

From nothing all beings as beings come to be. (Heidegger)
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Re: Question about stuff

Postby desert_woodworker on Mon Feb 08, 2016 3:53 pm

chankin1937 wrote:Are you telling me that they teach for free; that attendance in the sangha costs nothing?

Hm-m, I see that's uppermost in your considerations. Why don't you grow up, already?

--Joe
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Re: Question about stuff

Postby desert_woodworker on Mon Feb 08, 2016 3:58 pm

chankin1937 wrote:Have you noticed that there is never anything constructive or helpful in your posts?

It's necessary to empty your tea-cup of swill before you can accept good tea.

Master Nonin wrote something similar to you, in the same recognition of your behavior.

Well, there you go. If a guy can't be anything else, one just has to let him be "right".

"Right" -- and an authority -- on his own outer-path, that is. Nolo contendere, there!

--Joe
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Re: Question about stuff

Postby chankin1937 on Tue Feb 09, 2016 11:34 am

Hello Joe,
You forgot to answer any of my questions!
Colin
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Re: Question about stuff

Postby desert_woodworker on Tue Feb 09, 2016 4:26 pm

chankin1937 wrote:You forgot to answer any of my questions!

Hey, I see you're catching on.

Anyway, your questions are off-topic. And this is not your thread, that is. Plus,...

You haven't emptied your cup of swill, yet.

Meanwhile, nice day, here! Expecting about 80 deg F, at 2450 feet, and exceedingly dry, single-digit humidity.

New Hampshire Primary Election is today, Tuesday. Stay tuned (All).

--Joe

p.s. do not press a certain blue button (press "Flush" instead).
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