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Who/What can we "pray" to when things get desperate?

Discussion of Japanese Sōtō Zen / 曹洞宗

Re: Who/What can we "pray" to when things get desperate?

Postby Herbie on Wed Mar 04, 2015 5:20 pm

fukasetsu wrote:
Herbie wrote:Our Father in heaven,


just be(a)ware of archetypes, since one cannot act oneself out of a role.

(applies to all kinds of Gods, Buddhas, and Bodhisattvas, angels whatever.)

It usually takes a good knock on the head before even realizing one has lived in a made up world the entire time.

[/quote]
?
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Re: Who/What can we "pray" to when things get desperate?

Postby fukasetsu on Wed Mar 04, 2015 5:33 pm

Just a general note from observing folks who were trapped in archetypes who needed insight into it.

Comment has nothing to do with interpretation of the quote or saying anything about what I think it's pointing to (meaning etc)
it fluctuates on the one reading, hence the "warning" based on past observations, it has nothing to do with you or directed at anyone in particular.

You are synthesizing the meaning that appears to you.


so do you want to be the pot or the kettle? :heya:
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Re: Who/What can we "pray" to when things get desperate?

Postby Sparkle on Thu Mar 05, 2015 1:09 am

desert_woodworker wrote:Sparkle,

I don't know. And I don't know how this relates to "Soto", in particular, but ...I think that if we maintain -- or take up for intervals -- a running and lively recollection that (perhaps contrary to appearances at times), all people and all things are very closely related. The fact of this connection -- or this un-foldment out of each others' same source -- is something that we know and have experienced at our best moments. Why doubt it now?

If it feels that the impact of a dread or a done-deal falls only upon our head, it could be good to realize that the blow is in fact distributed. This may not make a lot of immediate "sense", but maybe it will be helpful. And perhaps there are others around you and near you who can offer some care, or even just the gift of their presence. I knew a teacher who was known to soothe his disciples during difficult times by just crying with them, if they cried. I suppose it was helpful, since he kept doing it, and he seemed an extraordinarily sensible fellow.

Well, there are folks here who feel some of your pain, even across the miles. Maybe by your just knowing that, it's as good as gold, or as good as sending a signal or plea to the Spirit in the Sky. After all, we folks (non-deities... ) actually reply, even though it's only in flat letters on a screen. But it's certain that we're out here, "listening", breathing, together -- if not in unison, at least in union.

yours, truly,

--Joe


Thank you Joe.

Yes...that does make sense. :rbow:
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Re: Who/What can we "pray" to when things get desperate?

Postby Sparkle on Thu Mar 05, 2015 1:12 am

Thanks to everyone who took the time to reply to this post.

I always feel a real sense of gratitude when people make the effort to help...especially when it's something like this...when I really NEEDED some good replies.

Thanks friends. :ghug:
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Re: Who/What can we "pray" to when things get desperate?

Postby Herbie on Thu Mar 05, 2015 6:40 am

Herbie wrote:
fukasetsu wrote:
Herbie wrote:Our Father in heaven,


just be(a)ware of archetypes, since one cannot act oneself out of a role.

(applies to all kinds of Gods, Buddhas, and Bodhisattvas, angels whatever.)

It usually takes a good knock on the head before even realizing one has lived in a made up world the entire time.

?
You are synthesizing the meaning that appears to you.

fukasetsu wrote:Just a general note from observing folks who were trapped in archetypes who needed insight into it.

Comment has nothing to do with interpretation of the quote or saying anything about what I think it's pointing to (meaning etc)
it fluctuates on the one reading, hence the "warning" based on past observations, it has nothing to do with you or directed at anyone in particular.

:lol2:
Obviously you don't get it.

The sphere of your brain ends at its surface.

So why should other's "be(a)ware" of the ghosts your brain that is conditioned to produce these ghosts produces?

How can you observe others being trapped in your brain-ghosts?

fukasetsu wrote:so do you want to be the pot or the kettle? :heya:

What? Another of your ghosts?
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Re: Who/What can we "pray" to when things get desperate?

Postby Chrisd on Thu Mar 05, 2015 11:16 am

Sparkle wrote:Thanks to everyone who took the time to reply to this post.

I always feel a real sense of gratitude when people make the effort to help...especially when it's something like this...when I really NEEDED some good replies.

Thanks friends. :ghug:


I usually feel gratitude at being able to help in whatever small way. I really NEEDED to give some help. Ha!
I think it's good to always keep in mind it's always a 2-way stream so gratitude is wonderful but no debt feel is necessary :)
This principle is/should also be active with teacher-student in Zen.

Helping and getting help, both good. We are One!

:ghug:
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Re: Who/What can we "pray" to when things get desperate?

Postby Herbie on Thu Mar 05, 2015 11:27 am

Chrisd wrote:We are One!

:lol2:

If it's ok that I will be the last to die ... :tee:
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Re: Who/What can we "pray" to when things get desperate?

Postby Chrisd on Thu Mar 05, 2015 1:24 pm

Youve been dying since the day you were born!
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Re: Who/What can we "pray" to when things get desperate?

Postby fukasetsu on Thu Mar 05, 2015 1:28 pm

Chrisd wrote:Youve been dying since the day you were born!


Hey that's a metallica song . (the 4 horseman) :dance:

sorry on topic;

prayers to all. :ghug:
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Re: Who/What can we "pray" to when things get desperate?

Postby fukasetsu on Thu Mar 05, 2015 1:39 pm

Herbie wrote: :lol2:
Obviously you don't get it.


No I don't "get" it Herbie, and it saddens my bones that you do.
In the same way I understand why humans go to war, but I don't "get" it at all.

:Namaste:
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Re: Who/What can we "pray" to when things get desperate?

Postby Herbie on Thu Mar 05, 2015 4:20 pm

Chrisd wrote:Youve been dying since the day you were born!

Hmh ... then we can't be one. :tee:
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Re: Who/What can we "pray" to when things get desperate?

Postby Chrisd on Thu Mar 05, 2015 6:26 pm

It's a paradox!
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Re: Who/What can we "pray" to when things get desperate?

Postby Nonin on Thu Mar 05, 2015 6:57 pm

Pray to the Buddhas and Bodhisattvas. You may reach one or two, or maybe more. Sometimes when we send out a general request for help, a response will come.

Hands palm-to-palm,

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Re: Who/What can we "pray" to when things get desperate?

Postby Sparkle on Thu Mar 05, 2015 9:02 pm

Thanks Nonin :rbow:
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Re: Who/What can we "pray" to when things get desperate?

Postby zafu on Thu Apr 09, 2015 3:50 pm

Nonin wrote:Pray to the Buddhas and Bodhisattvas. You may reach one or two, or maybe more. Sometimes when we send out a general request for help, a response will come.

Hands palm-to-palm,

Nonin


Petitionary prayer, really?
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Re: Who/What can we "pray" to when things get desperate?

Postby fukasetsu on Thu Apr 09, 2015 3:53 pm

zafu wrote:Petitionary prayer, really?


Not petitionary because it's nothing seperate or superior.

meister eckhart 4.jpg


Just as no one can explain that bowing is bowing back.
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Re: Who/What can we "pray" to when things get desperate?

Postby Gregory Wonderwheel on Thu Apr 09, 2015 7:49 pm

There is praying, and there is inquiry. Sometimes they seem very different, and sometimes they overlap. Usually praying is done with "the other" in mind from a position of small self image, and asking for something to be changed for the better.
Inquiry can also be oriented to "the other" but does not ask for something better and instead asks for clarity. Praying brings solace, inquiry brings liberation.

Some examples of related inquiry from Zen koan materials:

(1) Practice master Zu of East Mountain said, "Śākya and Maitreya are like servants of another. Just say, who is the other?"

(2) Yunmen said, "How vast is this world? What is the reason you face the sound of the bell and manage to unroll [your robe of] seven-strips?"

(3) The second of the "Verses on the Five Positions of Achieving Merit" by Dongshan:
Dedicating:
For whom do you play up to by washing clean the strong smell of the village?
Inside of the cuckoo’s voice is an exhortation to people to return to their origin.
Hundreds of flowers fall and are exhausted; the voice is inexhaustible.
Even turning to the deep places of the jumbled peaks, the cry.

_/|\_
Gregory
Why you do not understand is because the three carts were provisional for former times, and because the One Vehicle is true for the present time. ~ Zen Master 6th Ancestor Huineng
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